From corr@hal.hahnemann.edu Fri Mar 18 09:30:09 1994 Subject: Here's a dance floor FAQ of captured msgs... DANCEFLOOR FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions--and answers) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Description: Finishing dance floors Having just completed yet another refinishing job on dance floors I have gained a moderate amount of knowledge in this field. I must say this is a job that is VERY labor intensive. It also requires patience I do not recommend Polyurethane, although it looks "pretty" it is not functional as a dance floor. I do recommend "Dura-seal" the kind without Polyurethane. In the color of your choice. Keep in mind not much of the color will be seen. However, don't mix them because it will be obvious. Steps: 1. Sand floors remove all of the old finish. Use a drum sander for the major part of the work and an edge sander for the rest. 2. Throughly clean the floor. But, don't use a liquid, it will cause you to loose a whole day. 3. Apply the first coat of Dura-seal. There will be three. This should be the thickest coat. Application instructions are provided on the can you can follow these for the product. I also recommend the Quart size of Dura-seal. The gallon size is a different formula which takes longer to dry. 4. Allow 24 hrs for the first coat to dry. 5. With 100 (00) sand paper remove ALL the dura-seal on the SURFACE of the floor. 6. apply a second and third coat of dura-seal. Allow 8-12 hrs of dry time between coats. 7. Remove ALL dura-seal from the surface of the floor. If any dura-seal remains on the surface of the floor it will feel sticky in dance shoes. You REALLY want to dance right on the wood of the floor. Once you have completed this process the floor should last about 20-30 years. If you plan ahead you should be able to finish a floor in about 3 days (depending on the size of the floor). I finished 2600 sq ft. in three days with one helper. Good Luck Mark ________________________________________________________________________ From: ahgberg@aol.com Description: Ballroom Dance Floors-care cleaning & construction Dear John D. and other dancing colleagues Over the years , ballroom dancing (dance) floors have been a topic of endless concern and discussion to both beginning dancers as well as advanced dancers. I have danced on surfaces (represented as dance floors) ranging from wood, black top, bricks, slate, cement and kentile. The best dance floor I have danced on was referred to as a "sprung" floor. This type of floor I'm told provides some resiliency to the dancers which resiliency is not provided by other surfaces. Tongue and groove hardwood(maple or oak) are best for durability and comfort to the dancing feet. I'm told that the wood is laid over a base of plywood and the plywood is laid over a variety of wood firring strips that all contractors do not agree upon. Most were in agreement that laying the wood surface directly over a concrete slab would cost the least but would be the floor least likely to survive heavy traffic or maintenance. I will not question their logic. I do know from experience that the ideal situation is not always attainable when it comes to finding comfortable dancefloors. When I have danced for any length of time (over and hour or two) on a floor laid over concrete I get what is known as "shin splints". The ailment occurs the next day (or at least the symptoms) up the front of my lower legs where the muscle (s) attach to the "shin bone". I have found the same problem when dancing on "beautifully kept" gym floors used for "sports" and ballroom dancefloor alternatively. The wood on gym floors is usually laid on end (as opposed to the flat side) and then the surface which is usually very beautiful to the eye is provided with a protection of some nonskid polyurethane lacquer. For basketball players in "sneakers" or "other rubber soled foot gear" it is ideally suited. For my thin soled capezios I find the floor a bit too slow and too "hard"..A FLOOR , BARE OF LACQUER AND/OR WAX "POLISHED BY THOUSANDS FEET OF BALLROOM DANCERS" SEEMS THE BEST SURFACE TO DANCE ON. THE LESS WAX YOU PUT ON IT THE BETTER IT FEELS TO THE DANCING FEET OF BALLROOM DANCERS. I have encountered beautiful "to the eye" highly polished floors with silicone wax protectant that is very dangeroous to ballroom dancers. I SUPPOSE YOU NEED TO VACUUM IT AND PERHAPS KEEP IT FROM "MOISTURE" WHICH WARPS THE WOOD AND "CUPS" THE INDIVIDUAL PLANKING. THE LESS MAINTENACE THE BETTER IT SEEMS. I have tried various resins (ROSINS) on my leather soled dance shoes but I have found it to be trublesome and "messy". I havbe also tried balloroom shoes with "suede leather" on the soles. Although they inhibited "slipping and sliding" on a fast floor somehow I didn't like the feel of the floor so I went from what Capezio called "a ballroom shoe" to a "character" shoe. Until I discussed this difference with the vendor I wasn't totally aware of the difference it would make in my dancing comfort. Hope I have helped with this rambling contribution. sincerely A HGberg@aol.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Description: Re: Ballroom Dance Floors-care cleaning & construction In article <CMnzz2.BM3@cbnews.cb.att.com> katinsky@stumpy.geography.wisc.edu writes: > >>>The best dance floor I have danced on was referred to as a "sprung" floor. >>>This type of floor I'm told provides some resiliency to the dancers which >>>resiliency is not provided by other surfaces. Tongue and groove >>>hardwood(maple or oak) are best for durability and comfort to the dancing >>>feet. I'm told that the wood is laid over a base of plywood and the plywood >>>is laid over a variety of wood firring strips that all contractors do not >>>agree upon. > >>And for added comfort, you can put rubber strips beneath the firing strips. >>I was looking into getting a dance floor for the basement of the house >>I just bought -- until I discovered the entire upper floor is all hardwood. >>So the joists should provide natural springing, especially since it's >>on the upper level! > >And for an added little bit of fakelore: > >A friend of mine, WHO SWEARS THIS IS TRUE ;-) , says he danced on a floor >constructed with used tires salvaged from a junk yard. The construction is the >same as above except the firring strips (I assume that is what they are called >although he didn't use that expression) are in a grid pattern -- two layers, one >laid out north-south over another laid out east-west. The two layers were >separated by a layer of tires placed strategically at every grid intersection. > >I suppose if it doesn't work as a dance floor, it would make a great indoor >trampolene. > Tires sound too springy. Any arrangement where there is a vertical line from the surface of the floor entirely through wood to concrete will have zero spring at that point, since the compressibility of wood is too small to matter for this purpose. Here is what I posted a while back about what I got done in the back room of my house. It is definitely good. Some other people have used this method, and agree. (Should this be in the dancing-FAQ?): >From dgolber@aero.org (Dave Golber) In article <1lbjuuINNt03@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> sutin@helios.ucsc.edu (Brian Sutin) writes: > >What exactly is the construction of a "sprung wood floor" -- does it >really have springs, how big are they, and is there some kind of damping >used? > Sometimes, I think, "sprung" means the floor is on wood beams above an open space ... So if you want one, all you gotta do is dig a basement underneath ... More seriously: we had a wood floor put in our back room (16'x24') for dance. We had it "sprung". Here's what goes down, starting from the bottom: Original cruddy concrete slab. Special very-liquid (and expensive) concrete to level slab. Plastic film vapor barrier Little rubber thingies, about 2" square and 1/2" thick, specially made for this sort of thing. 1/2" plywood running THIS way 1/2" plywood running THAT way 3/4" oak strips. Finish. It was rather expensive ... the special concrete to level the old slab was a good part of it. Apparently some architects and floor people know all about this stuff, if you just say "dance floor" or "sprung floor". On the other hand, we had some floor guys come over to look at it to bid on it, and they weren't interested enough to give us a reply of any kind! The result: when you jump up and down, someone can see the floor give under you. The result to you: no pain! As for finish: gettinng the finish you want may be hard. The typical "dance" floor is much too slick for folk-dancer types. My suggestion is to get a cooperative contractor, and have him do samples until you like that sample. Give me a call if you want to talk more. I could look up my records. Dave Golber 310/391-1269 --------------------------------------------------------------------- >From dgolber@uniblab.aero.org Fri Mar 12 17:15:56 1993 Posted-Date: Fri, 12 Mar 93 14:15:08 PST From: dgolber@uniblab.aero.org (Dave Golber) To: tommy@archimedes.ae.utexas.edu Subject: Re: Dancefloors * I am assisting in the construction of a dancefloor. The space is a large * commercial storefront (used to be a Kinko's copies) with a concrete slab * floor. If you could answer a coupla questions, I would be grateful: * * 1. How far apart were the rubber thingies spaced? Since you used * plywood running in both directions, I assume they were spaced the * same in both directions. ...One foot on centers in both directions. The plywood was one layer running parallel to one wall, one layer running parallel to the other wall. No necessary relation to the spacing of the rubber thingies. Call me and I'll give you the brand name of them. The whole thing is known to the right kind of architects as a "dance floor", I believe. * * 2. How were the edges of your plywood sheets connected to one another? Not at all. The whole thing is held together (I think) by the nails which hold the strips to the plywood. They go through both layers. (I'm not sure of this point. Call me and I'll check the records. If they don't indicate, I could call the guy who did the work.) * * 3. How bad (how do you quantify this sort of thing?) does the slab have * to be to require leveling cement, and what are the consequenses if * it is not used? In my case, the slab was really tilted. Had to be done. The floor guy cared enough about flatness (as opposed to tilt) that he used roofing felt, cut to fit, to even up depressions that were perhaps 1/8" deep across several feet. I can't tell you just _how_ necessary this was. * * 4. What would be the consequences of leaving out the vapor barrier? My impression from what I've read is that the vapor barrior is real important, since moisture from/through the slab can do awful things to the oak. Like making it expand, and rise up like there were gophers underneath. * * 5. Your opinion of this design: * * 3/4" oak flooring on 3/4" plywood running only one direction * over 2"x4" studs laid directly upon concrete slab. (possibly * anchored ?) Studs to be spaced more or less at standard joist spacing * for 3/4" decking both THIS way and THAT way. The studs would lie with * the 4" face vertical, giving (nominally) a 4" clearance between slab * and decking. * * This will of course be springier between joists and stiffer over them. * My comments: (1) Yes, you need a vapor barrier. (2) You will have NO spring over the joists. Wood doesn't compress. (3) You've used 4+3/4+3/4 inches of vertical space in your room. It you have a high ceiling, it doesn't matter. (In my case, it did.) Total height in my case: 1/2+1/2+1/2+3/4 inches. ----------------------- Give me a call, and I can look up names, etc. 310/391-1269. Los A,CA evenings. Also: there are lots of do it yourself books about floors. They don't much talk about making them springy, but they'll tell you about vapor barriers, etc. I don't do floors myself, but I consider myself a fairly experienced wood worker. I was considering an arrangement maybe like this: 1/2x2 inch, on flat side, running north/south 2x4 on flat side, running EW 1/2x2, on flat side, running N/S plywood oak. The idea would have been that the 1/2x2s and 2x4s would be arranged in such a way that in no place was there a straight line entirely though wood to concrete. But then one has to figure out spacings, so as to get the right amount of spring. And the loss of vertical space would be 1/2+2+1/2+3/4. Having seen what my floor guy did, I think it's better, with the possible caveat that some arrangement like the one I was thinking of might be less sensitive to flatness of the underlying slab. Dave Golber ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tpower@daisy.cc.utexas.edu (Thomas Power) Description: Re: Ballroom Dance Floors-care cleaning & construction (I am having editing problems on the machine that I get news on, so I wrote this elsewhere; please forgive the non-standard attribution.) --(stuff deleted about sandwich floor over cruddy concrete...)-- This was originally a reply to a query of mine asking for dancefloor information, because I was about to be involved in the construction of a ~1500 s.f. ballroom floor. We followed this plan, after having gotten *exactly* the same story (as well as a nice discount on the "little rubber thingies") from a local floor builder. Fortunately, the leveling concrete was not necessary in our case, and we used tar paper as our vapor barrier. The rubber thingies are stapled to the bottom of the bottom layer of plywood. I believe we placed them on 1' centers both directions, but check with a knowledgeable authority to be sure. The whole sandwich is held together with the staples or nails which are shot into the tongues of the flooring strips with a special pneumatic gun. Our floor guy suggested the staples, which did work very nicely. (these are very serious staples.) You must leave space (we were told to leave a half inch) between the floor structure (plywood as well as flooring) and all walls in order to accomodate swelling. We were also told to let the flooring sit for some time (seems like it was > 1 week) in the room to allow it to shrink or swell in response to the usual level of humidity in the room, which may be quite different than that where the flooring was stored before. This makes for a very nice floor. We were very pleased with it; it was not squishy by any means, but it was certainly a far cry from dancing on tiles laid directly on concrete. I say "was" because not long after we built this floor, the studio was flooded by a plumbing accident in an adjacent business and our floor was ruined. The whole thing was torn out and rebuilt (exactly the way we had done it) by a professional flooring company (paid for with insurance $.) My only regret is that the floor was finished with what I believe was a polyurethane type finish. This made a O.K. dancing surface, because it was not put on too thick -- the texture of the wood was still apparent.(unlike the very glassy appearance of modern maple gymnasium floors) Nevertheless, I was hoping to follow the suggestion of another person who replied to my query and just saturate the floor with linseed oil after sanding it down. Once the floor has soaked the oil in for a couple of days the excess is wiped off, and the floor can apparently be used in a matter of days. I was hoping for this kind of finish because I am in agreement with the person who mentioned here that his (her?) favorite floor was bare wood worn smooth by dancing, and I figured this was as close as we could get and still take proper care of the wood. -- Thomas Power \ Buy the best mousetrap. Dept. of Engineering Mechanics \ University of Texas at Austin \ Opinions courtesy of myself only. tommy@archimedes.ae.utexas.edu \ -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ecb@world.std.com (Eileen C Bauer) Description: Re: Ballroom Dance Floors - construction eijkhout@cupid.cs.utk.edu (Victor Eijkhout) writes: >In article <CMoxo5.784@cbnews.cb.att.com> The Wilde One <JCWILDE@acad.keyanoc.ab.ca> writes: > Tis isn't intended as a flame, but ANY arrangement which > consists entirely of wood (and air) MUST necessarily have some > point at which there is a straight line entirely though wood to > concrete. >This is not intended as a flame either, but I think you are wrong. >Make a 3-layer arrangement as follows: >layer 1: strips running NS at x-coordinates 0,2,4,6, ... >layer 2: strips runing EW at unspecified y-coordinates >layer 3: strips running NS at x-coordinates 1,3,5,7, ... >It is obvious(*) that this will be a springy arrangement. Now >the only problem is that the NS strips have to be close enough that >the EW strips will not crack. It may be wise to make layer 2 out >of a tougher material. And putting the NS strips closer together >makes the springiness tougher, putting them further apart makes the >spring action looser. >(*) layer 1 makes contact with layer 2 at even x-coordinates, >layer 3 makes contact with layer 2 at odd x-coordinates. Hence >there is no point where *3* layers touch. Saw the above setup described in Dance magazine. Strips should not be placed so that longest side is vertical, because this would give very little bounce. Placing the longest side horizontal lets the wood give way more, but also puts the most weight on the weakest edge of the wood. Therefore you would have to interleave the strips closer than you would otherwise. Maybe every 6in? Normal floors have beams ever 1 foot or so... -eileen ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From: prodnzr@aol.com Description: Re: Wax on dance floors. >I have heard various dancers and teachers recommend the application of >baby oil, talcum powder or powdered laundry detergent to the soles of >dance shoes, to compensate for floors that are too slick or too >sticky. As someone who has maintained a 2500 sq ft maple dance floor for 6 years. I would like to pass on a few helpful suggestions. 1st) Never, never, allow someone to put dance wax down on a dance floor. If someone falls down in these litigious times the fallee will probably end up owning your ass ets. Dance wax is used by shufflers who don't pick up their feet. As such they try to minimize friction by making a dance floor slick. When someone with proper dance shoes steps on the waxed spot it is treacherous. The chrome suede soles are called non skid because they allow you to slide your foot when light to moderate pressure is applied. When firm pressure is applied to the shoe, the fuzz on the sole bites down and one stops quickly. A good dancer can pirouette (spin) 5-7 times on a "slow" floor. I think that should be proof that a floor is fast enough. 2nd) As an emergency, if someone throws wax down a good antidote is to brush it inward to as small a spot as possible and the put Tide detergent down over and around the affected area. (Others don't seem to work as well). The grit in the Tide will slow the floor down although it takes weeks to get the surface back to what it was. 3rd) For gyms or floors where ballet rosin has been used, try a lightly damp mop to clean followed by dry floor mop with a very few drops of boiled linseed oil. Go up and down the floor in both a linear and crosswise manner and the floor can be improved temporarily. By the way all we ever do is dry mop once a week I'll also pass on a saying I'll never forget. I once asked the 6 time Latin Champion Lorraine from Sweden what one should do when the music was fast and the floor slick. Lorraine responded" The floor is not fast or slow, only more or less forgiving! " Just as you can STAND on ice without falling, take a big step and your are pondering the blueness of the sky. So it is with dance. Get over your feet and no floor is too fast. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hage@netcom.com (Carl Hage) Description: Re: Talc, etc. Dancers and particularly dance teachers should NEVER recommend application of substances to a dance floor (other than by the proprietor) or to dance shoes which could be transferred to the floor. This is VERY dangerous and can cause people to fall and get badly hurt. The best way to compensate for a bad floor is to change shoes. Adding substances to the floor (or your shoes and then to the floor) almost always creates an uneven distribution which will cause people to slip. Adding substances to your shoes (other than water) at best is only temporary and is still inconsistent. In many cases, a floor will seem too sticky or too slick because someone is wearing improper shoes. In other cases, it's a matter of preference, e.g. many older dancers like to shuffle across the floor rather than step. I remember one competition where a person was stepping in a pile of soap flakes (put on carpet making a big mess) which then ended up making slippery spots on the floor. This floor was PERFECT! The person adding the soap was not wearing normal dance shoes with suede soles so she may have thought it was slow. The person was repeatedly told not to add substances to the floor and did it anyway. Unfortunately she was not disqualified. The competition had to be stopped several times so the floor could be cleaned. I think USABDA should have a rule that anyone caught adding substances to a floor at a competition will be immediately disqualified (or shot). If you wear suede shoes you can compensate from a slick floor by putting water on your soles, and a slightly moistened sole will not transfer water to the floor. However, do not make puddles of water on the floor for someone else to inadventantly step in. Adding water will not help if the the floor is slick from added shuffleboard wax or soap. In this case, the entire floor must be cleaned and everyones shoes must be individually cleaned. (That is why a person adding soap to a floor should be shot.) You can also brush suede soles to compensate for a slightly slick floor. If the floor is too sticky you should change shoes, perhaps to an old pair where the suede is polished or a pair with leather soles. If you are organizing a dance and need to fix a sticky floor, I know of a case where a large floor was fixed by adding a liquid which can be spread evenly with a mop which when dried left an almost even film of wood dust (I think). When first applied, it is still somewhat spotty, but after a few weeks of grinding in by dancers, it was OK. I don't know the brand, but if someone really wants to know I can try to find out. Another solution for a sticky (or possible too slick) floor is to buff the floor with a steel wool mat (by machine of course). This worked in one case I know of for a too sticky floor, but it took a couple of tries and then a month or so of dancers "buffing" the floor before it was good. Remember, don't add soap, talc, or wax-- change to leather shoes! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: corr@hal.hahnemann.edu Description: trouble with part-time dance floors Hi, all. I'm a swing dancer (among other things) and went to a dance this past Saturday wher the ballroom floor was horrendous. The swing dance society rotates through several ballroom facilities. The most frequently used is at an Irish center. They must have waxed or refinished it over the summer. The last dance and this dance the surface was really slow, possibly sticky. I helped set up and after kneeling to tape the table coverings I received a black oily mark on my tan pants. This place doubles as a catering facility and is always short on cash. I had a similar experience at a swing dance weekend when a workshop was held in a small restaurant dining room. Also a sticky floor. My jazz shoes were trashed on the bottom. We also danced at a catering facility that had ultra slippery floors. The group leaders roughed up their shoe soles with wire brushes and sprinkled a bit of water around to no avail. People were slipping right and left. During the summer the City of Phila. holds outdoor swing band concerts at the waterfront on Thursday evenings. The space in front of the bandstand is concrete. A swing promoter brought a shallow box and poured Ivory Snow (I can't remember if it was powder or flakes) and we rubbed our soles in it to take the stress off our ankles and knees. It seemed to work well. My question: Do you have any suggestions for cleaning the floors that are sticky, and how long ahead can it be done before a dance. As a volunteer group I'm wondering about the committment needed. Can anything be done about ultra-slippery floors (other than dancing in sneakers.) Any tips for quick fixes like the soap flakes? A friend carries a candle in her handbag if the floor is too sticky. This was the second dance at this facility and I found it really frustrating. I like to spin and so do the women. I was reduced to pivots for both of us. My knees have been giving me trouble and, in fact, kept me from dancing over the past year. I'm just returning and am pacing my involvement. I used to open and close the dances. (7:30 to Midnight.) Any help is appreciated. Paul ========================================================================= From: cn9gr8ad@lacerta.unm.edu (J.W. VanDenburg) I've only ran across sticky performance floors once, and for that we used one of those extra-wide dust mops FULL of dust to coat the surface, and had everyone scoot around to grind it in. > Can anything be done about ultra-slippery floors (other than dancing in >sneakers.) You might try resin and a ``cat-box.'' We use it all the time for slipperly dancefloors like Marly(sp?) or places that are maintained like a bowling alley. You can get it through the local ballet outfitter in leu of other resources. Water is really dangerous since it only provides a patchy surface and can be like dancing in cleats! > Any tips for quick fixes like the soap flakes? A friend carries a candle in >her handbag if the floor is too sticky. for the floor or her shoes!!?? ;-). Wax is extremely dangerous! We had a performance once where the candles on stage fell over and wax was left all over. People fell (and got injured) continuously the likes of which i have never seen before or since. They immediately redesigned the set before the next performance. -- ...je ...cn9gr8ad@lacerta.unm.edu =================================================================== Wax will help on slippery floors. It won't, however, do any good on ULTRA-slippery floors since these tend to be the "sealed" variety. What will help, however, provided that you are using "chrome"-soles, is keeping the soles wet. Possible ways: a) Water. Tends to dry with surprising speed. And is hard to control. Your shoes will be either very sticky or not sticky at all. b) Coke, beer, lemonade etc. Sounds horrible, but does help. (especially if you find yourself on a slippery floor without having been prepared for it). c) Oil. More exact: high-quality gun-oil. I know that it sounds silly (I mean, after all oil is supposed to make things even more slippery, not sticky), but it really works. BUT: Oil might damage the uppers! All three methods would not normally hurt a sealed floor. They might, however, pose a danger to others who are using the same floor as a gym (running around in sport-shoes and such...). Hope that's of some help Sven ====================================================================== From: MX%"ernst@ai.univie.ac.at" 21-SEP-1993 10:33:04.12 From: Ernst Buchberger <ernst@ai.univie.ac.at> Paul, I found your inquiry on the net regarding treatment of bad dance floors. As you noticed, there are two problems: sticky floors and ultra-slippery floors. For sticky floors I use wax. You may either use a rasp to spread the (candle-)wax over the floor, or else prepare the wax-flakes at home which makes the procedure quite quick before you start to dance. As for slippery floors, there are various possibilities: roughing up shoe soles helps a little, but not very much. I have used washing powder (detergent:spread it on the floor). A more extreme method is the use of rosin or else the combination of a mixture of rosin, a floor cleaning lotion and coke. Warning: the people owning the dance floor will not like the rosin because it may harm the floor surface (but it saves my ankles...). As for my practical experience: I have used the washing powder when dancing argentine tango, and I have used rosin for flamenco. The "combined magic potion" I did not yet try out for myself, it has been recommended to me by a flamenco teacher. I suppose you will not use the rosin method for swing dancing, but in flamenco you would like to do away with any slipperiness of the floor as much as possible. Hope that helps, Best regards, Ernst (BTW, I should like to hear about your experiences or any other "special recipes" you run across).